In a candid interview to Urdu weekly Nai Duniya,
Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi affirmed that he should be hanged
if found guilty in the 2002 communal riots in the state.
The interview was conducted by Shahid Siddiqui, the magazine's editor and a former Rajya Sabha MP from the Samajwadi Party.
Rediff.com presents the first part of an excerpt from the interview.
Talking
about the Gujarat riots (of 2002), it has been debated widely and it
has been talked about for the past 10 years. After the Godhra incident
and the burning of people in the train, why and how did you decide to
transfer the bodies to Ahmedabad? Were you not aware of the
repercussions?
I
have explained this in detail to the Special Investigation Team and the
Supreme Court. When the report has to come on that basis, it will come.
The bodies have to be given to the respective families, you have to,
isn't it? Can anyone take the bodies to the most tense areas? If there
is a body, will you take it to Godhra? How will the situation improve if
everyone starts moving to Godhra? The situation was tense in Godhra and
the incident took place there. Secondly, the train was going to
Ahmedabad and the passengers were from there, that means that it has to
go Ahmedabad. Then what is the simple way to take the bodies to their
families?
Like in every riot, they have to be peacefully handed over to them in hospital.
But
that is what exactly happened. You listen to the truth. What you have
been saying is on the basis of conjectures and lies. Listen, the truth
is very interesting. The truth is not about the movement, you can read
the issue of India Today on that incident. You can't keep all the bodies in Godhra, you should know to how to manage, it's an administrative duty.
All
the persons who were killed were from north Gujarat, we had to take the
bodies there. It was definite that you have shift them there, it's a
different question that whether they should be taken individually or in a
group, we had to shift them, there was no other option. Another
question was whether to move them in the day or at night. The
administration felt that they should be removed as subtly as possible to
avoid further tension. It was done to maintain peace.
Another
issue was whether to move them to the civil hospital; if we had moved
them to Ahmedabad's civil hospital then it would have escalated violence
as it was congested. It was the acumen of the administration to move
them to civil hospital in Sola. Sola, at that time, was on the outskirts
and it wasn't developed at that point of time.
All
the bodies were brought to Sola's civil hospital which was in a jungle
kind of area. Secondly, there were no processions taken out from there,
the bodies were peacefully given to the families. Thirteen or 14
unidentified bodies were technically dealt with behind the hospital.
This is how much we cared, but now if people are spreading lies (against
me) then what can be done?
When
there was news of disturbances, riots, killings in Ahmedabad, Gujarat,
you must have been getting information about it. What preventive action
did you take?
You
usually appeal to the people, clamp a curfew. My first appeal was to
Godhra in the evening saying that the administration will do its duty,
the criminals will be punished, people should maintain peace and the
usual things. All these things were seen on television and radio for
which footage is available.
On
the second day, the incident took place on February 27, I appealed in
the evening and came back by 10-10.30 pm. I called up the officers,
arranged for law and order, all the police force was called upon. India
has not faced an incident like this before, the incident was dreadful.
Earlier the newspapers took two days to publish incidents like these,
the photographs and all usually takes two or three days (prior to
Godhra). In this period the government machinery gets time to organise
and manage things like sending police force and all.
But
now it takes three minutes to show the incident (live) on television.
It is obvious that the speed of television news was more than the
government's speed. The first time in India, a government had to compete
with the speed of television to deal in a situation like this. If I
have to send telephonic information to Baroda, I can do it easily but if
I have send a police force from Ahmedabad to Baroda, its going to take
at least one and a half hours. This was the first time when the
government force had to compete with the speed of television and it is a
tough job for anyone.
I
am not someone who compares it with other riots of the country. It's
not right to say that, if it happened during 1984 then it's all right
for it to happen now, I do not allow such comparisons. But, when the
1984 riots happened, what happened in the first 72 hours? Not a single
tear gas shell was fired, not a single bullet was fired, there was no
lathi-charge in the first 72 hours, there was only one lathi-charge and
that to control the crowd at the place where Indira Gandhi's body was
kept. Here, on the 27th, people were arrested in advance, curfew was
imposed, tear gas was fired, bullets were fired and people were killed
in the firing. This was the record.
But
your own people, officers and politicians and there were reports in
newspapers stating that you asked the police officers to let people vent
their anger for 48 hours? The (late) Haren Pandya said this, Sanjay
Joshi also said it.
We
have to trust the Supreme Court. The court has set up a committee and
there is a report, instead of listening to me one should to trust the
people who have investigated. This is the first time when there has been
an inquiry on the riot, one should trust that. You should also trust
the government. I will give you a sheet where it is mentioned about the
government's action during the riots. You will get it with facts and
figures. Now even the media is very vibrant.
It
was said that people were identified and killed, burned as if it was
pre-planned or a list was available, how is it possible?
There
is no question of how did it happen because it's all a pack of lies.
One should rather read stories which report how Muslims were saved
during riots, many others were saved. If you believe in these stories,
then who would have survived?
Your ministers were sitting in the control room, what were they doing?
All of these answers are with the SIT. The SIT has investigated all this.
Yes, it's there but let the Muslims of India know, let them know what happened.
It's all lies. These are baseless lies
But there are records stating that they were in control rooms?
The Supreme Court has investigated the matter, wait for the report, my saying anything doesn't count.
Did you roam around the city and go to refugee camps during the riots?
All
the details are available. I went to all the places, cared for all of
them. On those many PILs that were filed in the Gujarat high court, all
the judgments are available. The government arranged well for the
refugees. It is a myth which is being circulated that the Gujarat
government did not run relief camps. Gujarat's specialty lies in its
social fabric, that is why according to the scheme the government gives
the management facility to the people. That is why in these camps the
management was in the hands of Hindus and Muslims but the expenses were
borne by the government.
Do you have any record of the expenses of food and all?
Yes,
we do have the records. That is why till date Gujarat has been credited
with the best facilities in the relief camps. We even arranged studying
facilities for the students who were appearing for their matriculation
exams. They even fared well in their examinations. These things won't be
discussed in the media, they have taken up the responsibility of
keeping mum about these things.
What did Atalji (Atal Bihari Vajpayee) say to you?
The video is available.
Did he say anything to you in private, everything is not said in public?
Lies are being spread on the Rajdharma statement of Atalji. The CD is available where he says that he knows that Modiji follows Rajdharma but that part is deleted.
It has been 10 years, what did he say, what is to be done, what are you doing, what did he say?
All of us wanted to do good. All of us wanted that.
After
the 1984 anti-Sikh riots, Rajiv Gandhi apologised, even Sonia Gandhi
apologised. Congress ministers like HKL Bhagat, Jagdish Tytler were
removed despite the lack of evidence but you never regretted, nor
apologised for the Gujarat riots as the head of the state government?
My
statements given at that time should be read to know my thoughts and
perception. I will give you my statements given to media at that time,
in the heat of the moment, unlike now when we sit and discuss in
air-conditioned rooms.
In my interview to Prabhu Chawla for Seedhi Baat
in 2005 or 2006, he asked if I was willing to apologise, to that I
responded that why should I be forgiven? If any head of state has
committed such a crime then he should be hanged in public so that for
the coming hundred years, no other head of state should ever think of
committing such a heinous crime. If anyone pleads for their forgiveness,
then they are encouraging such crimes.
If
Narendra Modi has committed such a crime then he should be hanged, this
is my upfront demand, but if people are attacking me with criticism for
political purposes without considering my effort of saving peoples
lives, then I don't have an answer for them.
But still, don't you feel sad at what happened or the guilt of not being able to stop the violence?
No, I was able to stop it. I don't agree that I have not been able to stop it.
But over 1,000 people were killed...
That is what I am saying, that we need to understand the incident.
If I am the editor of the newspaper, then I am the one who is held accountable for misinformation, not my reporter.
Whatever
I had said is available, I am not retracting. I am giving you the
entire sheet, datewise, stating what I felt. Read that as well. Then you
will feel that you have hurled baseless accusations at me. And instead
of me apologising, you should apologise for the faulty reports.
But
still, it is said that the Supreme Court had to set up an SIT to probe
the matter and your government did not take any significant step in
implicating the accused and your government had released most of the
people.
Again, you are getting trapped in lies and assumptions.
Yes, the entire world and nation is trapped in lies, what to do?
No,
there is a vested interest group. The SIT only deals with 8-9 cases,
not more. In my state thousands of FIRs have been lodged, many people
have been put behind bars. Till date not a single person has been
punished for their offences in the 1984 (anti-Sikh) riots. People have
been punished in over 50 cases in the 2002 riots, the judgments are out.
In the two cases which you discuss a lot (Best Bakery and Bilkis Bano)
as taken out of the state, the Gujarat police inquired about the Best
Bakery case even after it was taken outside, who probed the case, who
filed the charge-sheet, lodged the FIR and got the witnesses?
Everything was done by the Gujarat police.
One
judge in the high court set the accused free, then the case was taken
by the Maharashtra court -- same documents, same procedure, same
witness, same Gujarat police records -- but they were held guilty. Then
tell me, how is the Gujarat police held accountable for it? There was no
new charge-sheet, no new witness, no new investigation. You have
actually distrusted the judiciary – the Gujarat judiciary -- and took it
to the Maharashtra judiciary.
In
the Bilkis Bano case, the Gujarat police conducted the investigation,
people were held by the Gujarat police, the FIR and charge-sheet was
done by the Gujarat police and later the case was given to the CBI. The
CBI re-investigated the case and arrested 8-9 more people. The case was
taken up in Maharshtra and the people who were held accountable by
Gujarat's police were punished and the people were accused by the CBI
were acquitted.
Only
one person held guilty, (activist) Teesta Setelvad keeps saying this on
television. One police officer was punished, because he delayed the
submission of papers to the CBI, the delay was due to delay in
translation, he was punished for this delay, not for the riots, punished
for 2-3 months. Then tell me how are the Gujarat police responsible?
These cases are still pending, what can be the reason behind it? The
so-called secular people have taken 23 stays.
There
were reports that people are still being killed in encounters after the
riots, prima facia evidence shows that they were fake encounters, why
is it happening, what was the approach of administration?
I
will tell you about the advertisement in Uttar Pradesh by Mayawati,
the state which had you as a minister, says that law and order was
restored after 396 encounters. In my state there were only 12 encounters
and the cases are still running.
The
national human right commission says there were 400 fake encounters in
the last 10 years. The case is still pending in the Supreme Court about
reinvestigating these cases, why are you only talking about Gujarat?
This is a matter of concern, why is Gujarat being targeted? it is
happening in UP, India, Mumbai, so why pick on Gujarat? People who are
hell-bent on targeting Gujarat are doing so. Is this justice?
Are they pseudo-secularists or from the Congress party who are doing this?
I am not blaming any party, but there are people who want to destroy the image of Gujarat.
Your
own people, people from your own party, the RSS, BJP, VHP are accusing
you of being a dictator, not allowing people to speak and creating an
atmosphere of fear. These are people from your own party, why are they
all saying these things against you?
I
am not aware of such allegations. Even if people have said such things,
then it's fine because it's a democracy and people have the right to
express their opinion. If anyone is able to hurl allegations at me, then
it is itself a good thing.
But what do you think, why it is happening, are they scared of your popularity or fame?
I don't think there are such allegations, so naturally I can't tell you the reasons behind it.
There
is talk that you will become the prime minister in the future, you are
seen as the future prime minister. What will be your top five priorities
if you are at the Centre?
I
am fundamentally a person who works for the organisation and worked
mainly for the organisation (RSS). I have been made chief minister in
different circumstances. I have not even contested for the post of a
school monitor, I have not even contested for panch,
I have never been an agent in an election or been a representative at
the election booth. I was given this responsibility in special
circumstances and I totally focused on the wellbeing of six crore
Gujaratis.
Aren't you concerned about 110 crore Indians?
If
I am working for Gujarat and it's prospering and if five people from UP
are getting employment, then I am serving India. If I am doing good
work and people from Orissa are sending money to their homes, I believe I
am benefitting the country. That is why I don't think of anything
besides Gujarat. I have lots of dreams for Gujarat, my entire focus is
on Gujarat because if Gujarat is doing well, the nation will do well.
If
the provinces function well, then the country also functions properly.
If there are good crops or salt in Gujarat then the country will also be
benefitted.
But as there are talks and as the BJP is pushing the agenda of making you the prime minister, what will be your top five plans?
I
don't answer such loaded questions. I don't think of anything besides
Gujarat. Six crore Gujaratis are my focus and I want to work for them
with the power entrusted upon me by God and I obey the orders of my
people.
What
do you want to do for the betterment of the 10-12 percent minorities
among the six crore Gujaratis? What do you have in mind for the economic
betterment of this section?
If
I have built a road, it's for everyone, welfare is for everyone. I have
come out with a scheme called Mukyamantri Amritam Yojna where we have
spent Rs 200 crore for the treatment of poor people who are suffering
from serious health issues and everyone has benefitted from this scheme.
So
what is your concept of India? Do you want to make it a Hindu rashtra?
How do you see or how do you want India to be 50 years down the line?
I
would want India to be self-sufficient and prosperous. The 21st century
should be India's century and that should be everyone's dream. I have
been working for that. This is our prime goal.
It
is said that you are making Gujarat a model, it is a Hindu rashtra
laboratory and when you will take the lead you will make India a Hindu
rashtra. Where will you place minorities and Muslims in this?
First
of all, keeping the condition of minorities in India, the minorities in
Gujarat are much better off than the minorities of the rest of India
and the chance of the betterment of their status is no different from
the chance of betterment of Hindus. The nation should be such that it
gives equal opportunity to everyone, that is what our Constitution says
and even in society and family, equality of opportunity is a must for
proper functioning, it cannot function with discrimination. If you like
one daughter-in-law and dislike the other, then you are inviting trouble
in the family.
But
if there are five children in the family and one of them is weak or has
some physical disability, or for some reason has lagged behind, then
shouldn't he be given extra care?
Even
our Constitution says that, that is why we have categories like OBC,
SC, ST etc. If society will give up the responsibility of the weaker
sections, then who will take care of them? For example, if a couple has a
mentally-challenged child, then the couple gives extra care to their
child, they can't abandon him because they love him so much. But I
believe the mentally-challenged child is not the sole responsibility of
the parents to whom he is born but he is also the responsibility of
society where he is born. It is unfair to say that he is only the
parents' responsibility.
According
to the Sachar committee report, the Ranganath Mishra report, a report
during Indira Gandhi's regime by Gopal Singh, Muslims have lagged behind
the population due to historical and societal reasons. They are
socially, economically further lagging behind, with progress in society.
What do you think should be specifically done for them, there have been
steps taken for Dalits and other backward sections and now the
reservation is upto 50 percent, but the Muslims are neither in
reservation nor in the competition, how will their condition improve?
No,
it is not the case. Like at my place (in Gujarat), we have OBC and
backward class and even I am an OBC. Muslims come under more than 36 OBC
categories and they are entitled to avail of all the facilities
entitled under this category which are also enjoyed by the non-Muslim
OBCs.
Today
we have schools, teachers, budget expenditure but still we have
illiterate people and Gujarat has found out the solution for it. We have
initiated movements like girls' education, 100 percent enrollment.
Have you initiated any specific programmes for Muslim-dominated areas?
Do
you understand what is meant by 100 percent? It means nothing is left
behind. We make a group of ministers (including the chief minister), IAS
officers, IPS officers, forest officers visit each and every district
in June. In total we have a team comprising 900 men to cover different
villages. We even have a team for the districts. In total we cover
18,000 villages. We visit each and every house. In 2001 on an average we
had 60 percent enrollment rate. As a result of our drive now it is more
than 99 percent.
Earlier
we had 40 percent drop-out rate and now it has gradually reduced to two
percent. Now who has benefitted from these schemes? I don't label
people as Hindus and Muslims because that is not my philosophy. But I
believe each and every Gujarati child should get it. If I analyse the
schemes then what I enjoy the most is that the turnout of Muslim parents
in Muslim district school functions is 100 percent unlike the
attendance of Hindu parents in Hindu districts which is around 60
percent.
So, have you conducted any such functions in Muslim districts?
Yes,
lots of them. I believe that Muslim women are much more aware on this
issue on a personal level and also speak on this issue (education). In
one of my visits to one of the villages near Dhata, I decided to go to a
village which has the lowest education rate. I don't visit villages on
the basis of communities, it is decided on the basis of the education
rate. When I paid a visit to a village near Dhata, it had 70-80 percent
Muslim population, we came to know about the composition when we visited
these villages. Three girls wanted to meet me separately. They were
from 7-8 standards. I asked the teachers to move out.
When
I asked their names I got to know that they were Muslims. They said
they wanted to study but their parents were unwilling. I was moved by
the three young girls' desire to study which made them approach me and
speak against their parents. I asked the principal to make me meet their
parents but they were not around, they were poor farmers. I couldn't
meet them but I asked my district education officer to meet and convince
their parents to let them study. I am pleased to tell you that now they
are studying. It happened two years a go. It doesn't matter whether
they are Hindus or Muslims, I want children to be educated.
You
are right about the over 36 Muslim OBCs, but according to the survey
which took place post-Mandal that if there are for example 100 jobs,
then there are 1,000 applicants and there are over 150 Muslims applying
for jobs but only 100 are to be given jobs and consequently Muslims
don't get more than 2-3 seats, most of the seats are taken by the creamy
backward layer. That is why it was suggested that the Muslims within
OBCs should get 27 percent reservation because they haven't been able to
keep up.
Our
Constitution-makers have deliberated over the issue of reservations,
they have debated whether reservation should be given on the basis of
religion or not and there was no RSS, VHP and Bajrang Dal then...
Yes, Maulana Azad and the rest of the Muslim leaders themselves opposed the reservations.
That is why we should try and understand that period.
But it has been 64 years and we have amended the Constitution and learnt from it.
No,
it is not the same thing. These are fundamental issues. Will a country
like India progress like this? I will tell you later about Sachar
committee report, it should be studied. You see the condition of the
so-called secular states, you will be shocked. We have nine percent of
the population as Muslims and we have 11-12 percent Muslims in
government, Bengal has 24 percent Muslims and it has around two percent
Muslims in government and these are so-called secular states.
But
this not a recent phenomenon, Muslims in Gujarat were ahead in business
and other fields, it has not happened over the past 10 years.
If they were ahead, then why didn't people talk about it earlier, that yes Gujarati Muslims are ahead?
Because earlier Gujarat was not seen as state which discriminates against Muslims.
But
hypothetically, even if there was discrimination, then how is it
possible that even after 20 years of discrimination, Muslims are doing
well in Gujarat? If you predecide to take a stand against me then we
can't do much about it. Look at the reality. During 1985-95, for 10
years, there was no recruitment. (Former chief minister) Chimanbhai
Patel refused to hire even IAS officers. Recruitment happened during my
regime. We have six lakh people in government, I have myself recruited
around three lakh people.
So, there are 10-12 percent Muslims recruited in your regime?
I
have never counted and I won't do it in future. My job is to recruit
people on the basis of merit without discrimination. If he is a Muslim,
Parsi, Christian, it doesn't matter. This is my philosophy. Anyone who
has to get it, will get it.
Gujarat
is developing and Gujaratis are progressing but the minorities? I
consider your point that the Muslims in Gujarat are progressing with
respect to the Muslims in other parts but they are still backward as
compared to Gujarat's paradigm of development. Nobody
is backward as compared to Gujarat's development. Everyone's growth rate
is the same. When we came to power, we realised that the tribal belt
from Umargaon to Ambaji had no school with the science stream. Can you
imagine? We have reservations in engineering and medical but if there
will is no school with the science stream, how will a tribal child
become a doctor or an engineer?
My government recognised 45 tehsils that did not have science education in schools and what I did first was to open 11th and 12th classes in science in those schools. Everyone benefitted. Then I set up the Colgi Committee. The committee identified 44 parameters of backwardness and recognised 30 talukas out of the total 225 talukas in my state who are lagging behind in these 44 parameters. So, I formulated a special scheme asking the chief secretary to adopt those 30 talukas and he monitors those talukas every month. My effort is to bring those 30 talukas to the level of others. So, this is my work style.
Then we thought what should be done for improving education in the coastal areas which predominantly have fishing communities and is dominated by Muslims. So, we declared a package of Rs 15,000 crore. We wanted to develop Gujarat's seashore. We were aware that without societal development, there can be no balanced development. We started an ITI there, with a ship working yard and courses in port management and marine engineering.
There are areas in Ahmedabad which are quite backward, the minorities and Dalits reside there. These areas don't have banks and schools?
We have initiated a Sehri Garib Samrudh Yojna package worth Rs 15,000 crore and we have concentrated on education and employment. The banks do not come under my government, it under your favourite -- New Delhi's secular government, talk about them, let the world know about their reality.
Education is my prime goal. I have initiated a computer literacy programme. Children drop out after fifth and seventh standard because they are poor. I have told them that I will teach them to use computers and I believe that even fifth standard child can be taught to use a computer. I tell them that if today they can earn Rs 2,000-3,000, then after learning the skill they can earn up to Rs 5,000. I have trained around one lakh children. Who are these people, all of them are poor.
My government recognised 45 tehsils that did not have science education in schools and what I did first was to open 11th and 12th classes in science in those schools. Everyone benefitted. Then I set up the Colgi Committee. The committee identified 44 parameters of backwardness and recognised 30 talukas out of the total 225 talukas in my state who are lagging behind in these 44 parameters. So, I formulated a special scheme asking the chief secretary to adopt those 30 talukas and he monitors those talukas every month. My effort is to bring those 30 talukas to the level of others. So, this is my work style.
Then we thought what should be done for improving education in the coastal areas which predominantly have fishing communities and is dominated by Muslims. So, we declared a package of Rs 15,000 crore. We wanted to develop Gujarat's seashore. We were aware that without societal development, there can be no balanced development. We started an ITI there, with a ship working yard and courses in port management and marine engineering.
There are areas in Ahmedabad which are quite backward, the minorities and Dalits reside there. These areas don't have banks and schools?
We have initiated a Sehri Garib Samrudh Yojna package worth Rs 15,000 crore and we have concentrated on education and employment. The banks do not come under my government, it under your favourite -- New Delhi's secular government, talk about them, let the world know about their reality.
Education is my prime goal. I have initiated a computer literacy programme. Children drop out after fifth and seventh standard because they are poor. I have told them that I will teach them to use computers and I believe that even fifth standard child can be taught to use a computer. I tell them that if today they can earn Rs 2,000-3,000, then after learning the skill they can earn up to Rs 5,000. I have trained around one lakh children. Who are these people, all of them are poor.
Do you believe in secularism, do you think India should remain secular?
People who are out to teach India about secularism are insulting India, it's a born secular state, there are people in India who believed in secularism. No one should teach India about secularism, there was time when our boundary stretched up to Afghanistan and as the situation changed the country ceased to be secular.
Same goes for Pakistan and Bangladesh, it was secular due the presence of people who believed in this idea. That is why before questioning India's secularism you should see what has happened to these countries. That is why people like us believe in secularism.
What do you mean by pseudo-secular?
They are those who play politics on the basis of religion but wax eloquent about secularism.
Name those parties...
That is not my job and I don't take names.
You were now talking about India's secular past. Is it your dream to have a united India (Akhand Bharat) again? To regain what has been lost?
I haven't said anything like that.
Are you saying it should be like that?
I was merely familiarising you with history.
But should it be like that?
Wait, let me tell you... I was introducing...
Is it not your dream? It is our dream at least.
We want our country, as it is now, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari to remain one, remain noble (Ek rahe, nek rahe). And our dream for the welfare of all mankind -- Vasudeva Kutumbakam -- is our vision of the whole world is a family. Our ancestors' dream, Ekam Sat Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti -- that the truth is one, knowledgeable people call it by different names. And our ancestors' dream that Sarve Api Sukhina Santu Sarve Santu Niramayah, Sarve Bhadrani Pashyantu, Ma Kaschid Dukha Bhag Bhavet -- may everybody be happy, may good happen to everybody. We do not want that welfare for one and not for another. That is not our dream. Our dream is inclusive of everybody.
People who are out to teach India about secularism are insulting India, it's a born secular state, there are people in India who believed in secularism. No one should teach India about secularism, there was time when our boundary stretched up to Afghanistan and as the situation changed the country ceased to be secular.
Same goes for Pakistan and Bangladesh, it was secular due the presence of people who believed in this idea. That is why before questioning India's secularism you should see what has happened to these countries. That is why people like us believe in secularism.
What do you mean by pseudo-secular?
They are those who play politics on the basis of religion but wax eloquent about secularism.
Name those parties...
That is not my job and I don't take names.
You were now talking about India's secular past. Is it your dream to have a united India (Akhand Bharat) again? To regain what has been lost?
I haven't said anything like that.
Are you saying it should be like that?
I was merely familiarising you with history.
But should it be like that?
Wait, let me tell you... I was introducing...
Is it not your dream? It is our dream at least.
We want our country, as it is now, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari to remain one, remain noble (Ek rahe, nek rahe). And our dream for the welfare of all mankind -- Vasudeva Kutumbakam -- is our vision of the whole world is a family. Our ancestors' dream, Ekam Sat Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti -- that the truth is one, knowledgeable people call it by different names. And our ancestors' dream that Sarve Api Sukhina Santu Sarve Santu Niramayah, Sarve Bhadrani Pashyantu, Ma Kaschid Dukha Bhag Bhavet -- may everybody be happy, may good happen to everybody. We do not want that welfare for one and not for another. That is not our dream. Our dream is inclusive of everybody.
Good will happen to them, only if... Pakistan's in a bad state now.
My party states that sabka saath, sabka vikas -- we are with everybody for everybody's development.
It will only be good for them when they become a part of united India...what has been cut rejoins India.
Samjraayavadi people have started a movement in Pakistan itself for a United India. The movement has started in Pakistan itself because they believe that if Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Hindustan become one, then the Muslim majority will increase and it will be easier for Hindustan to become an Islamic country. That is their dream of a United India. The movement is being started in Pakistan only to create tensions in India, not as a yearning for the way India was once.
The basis of your party itself has been the idea of United India (Akhand Bharat)...
I had made a small suggestion. I'll tell you... We call this Sanskritik Bharat. The dream of a United India is that we stay one, stay noble and don't disintegrate into smaller pieces. And this is not a wrong dream. Would you want the country to split further?
My father had written a book in 1946 predicting what would happen if Pakistan was formed... and whatever ruination followed. My father invested all his resources fighting the Muslim League and the partition of the country. Members of my family who had moved to Pakistan weren't allowed to enter the house for as long as my father was alive. He kept no link with them. He was such a strong/fanatic Indian -- that was also an extreme.
No, no. I gave a suggestion, when we celebrated 150 years of 1857. It was a public speech. Hindustan, Pakistan and Bangladesh should rejoin, because after all, 1857 is our common legacy.
We can't run away from our legacy.
Yeh saanjhi virasat hai (this is our common legacy). How can we deny that? This is my public statement. When we recently celebrated 150 years of 1857 and I said it with great sincerity.
My party states that sabka saath, sabka vikas -- we are with everybody for everybody's development.
It will only be good for them when they become a part of united India...what has been cut rejoins India.
Samjraayavadi people have started a movement in Pakistan itself for a United India. The movement has started in Pakistan itself because they believe that if Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Hindustan become one, then the Muslim majority will increase and it will be easier for Hindustan to become an Islamic country. That is their dream of a United India. The movement is being started in Pakistan only to create tensions in India, not as a yearning for the way India was once.
The basis of your party itself has been the idea of United India (Akhand Bharat)...
I had made a small suggestion. I'll tell you... We call this Sanskritik Bharat. The dream of a United India is that we stay one, stay noble and don't disintegrate into smaller pieces. And this is not a wrong dream. Would you want the country to split further?
My father had written a book in 1946 predicting what would happen if Pakistan was formed... and whatever ruination followed. My father invested all his resources fighting the Muslim League and the partition of the country. Members of my family who had moved to Pakistan weren't allowed to enter the house for as long as my father was alive. He kept no link with them. He was such a strong/fanatic Indian -- that was also an extreme.
No, no. I gave a suggestion, when we celebrated 150 years of 1857. It was a public speech. Hindustan, Pakistan and Bangladesh should rejoin, because after all, 1857 is our common legacy.
We can't run away from our legacy.
Yeh saanjhi virasat hai (this is our common legacy). How can we deny that? This is my public statement. When we recently celebrated 150 years of 1857 and I said it with great sincerity.
Last
question. In recent years, terrorism has been on the rise. Now
terrorism has no religion. Terrorism is terrorism. But we've seen that
Muslims have been, mostly internationally and a few in India as well,
and a few Hindus also have been, attracted towards terrorism. It was
there within the Sikh community as well. What steps do you think we
should take to combat terrorism in our country?
Zero tolerance. Zero tolerance towards terrorism. Secondly, stronger laws are needed. Countries that are champions of human rights have also devised strict laws to deal with terrorism.
But in your state, only people from one community were detained under laws like TADA and POTA, even though...
All POTA cases have been submitted to the Supreme Court of India. And the highest court in this country has validated the terrorist status of all those the Gujarat government has booked under POTA. None of our POTA cases turned out to be false. And not a finger was raised against the state in these cases.
On the other hand, when the Congress government ruled here, TADA was enforced. Our Makrand Desai was the Jan Sangh adhyaksh -- he has passed away now. He held a conference of TADA detainees and 600 people took part. It brought to the attention of the world all those who had been wrongfully detained under TADA. It was probably the first time in world democracy that a party had wrongfully detained so many people and those people were allowed to hold a conference. And most of them were Muslims. Over 80 per cent were Muslims. We brought them in front of the world. In my government, all those who had been accused were proven guilty and punished accordingly.
The Students Islamic Movement of India has been banned. Don't you think parties like Abhinav Bharat should be banned as well?
Firstly, Bharat sanghathan, there has been so clear structure that has materialised so far, like the IM's is slowly happening now.
Even that is not very clear as to where, who and why?
No clear structure has emerged
Are these some fake organisations?
It is the government's responsibility to look into that. What's the point of merely releasing balloons like this?
Zero tolerance. Zero tolerance towards terrorism. Secondly, stronger laws are needed. Countries that are champions of human rights have also devised strict laws to deal with terrorism.
But in your state, only people from one community were detained under laws like TADA and POTA, even though...
All POTA cases have been submitted to the Supreme Court of India. And the highest court in this country has validated the terrorist status of all those the Gujarat government has booked under POTA. None of our POTA cases turned out to be false. And not a finger was raised against the state in these cases.
On the other hand, when the Congress government ruled here, TADA was enforced. Our Makrand Desai was the Jan Sangh adhyaksh -- he has passed away now. He held a conference of TADA detainees and 600 people took part. It brought to the attention of the world all those who had been wrongfully detained under TADA. It was probably the first time in world democracy that a party had wrongfully detained so many people and those people were allowed to hold a conference. And most of them were Muslims. Over 80 per cent were Muslims. We brought them in front of the world. In my government, all those who had been accused were proven guilty and punished accordingly.
The Students Islamic Movement of India has been banned. Don't you think parties like Abhinav Bharat should be banned as well?
Firstly, Bharat sanghathan, there has been so clear structure that has materialised so far, like the IM's is slowly happening now.
Even that is not very clear as to where, who and why?
No clear structure has emerged
Are these some fake organisations?
It is the government's responsibility to look into that. What's the point of merely releasing balloons like this?
What do you think are the challenges that lie ahead of you in these upcoming elections in Gujarat?
Look, our biggest challenge is us, because the people have a lot of expectations of us. From others, they don't make so many requests. From me, they have more expectations. We have to break our own records every time.
Listen: Modi's controversial interview on Gujarat riots
You've set the standards so high...
If somebody works for six hours, then people are happy if that person works for six and half hours...but I work for 18 hours and people want me to work for 20.
There is opposition from within your party. People say that your biggest challenge is coming from within your own party. The mood is one of opposition.
I've left that decision to the public. Always. In 2002, in 2004 during the Lok Sabha elections, in 2005 during the Vidhan Sabha elections, the 2005 local self government elections, the 2007 assembly elections, 2010 local self government elections and the 2009 parliament elections. In 2012 my stand is still the same. In the last ten years, we've fought 6-7 varied elections and we've won all of them. Every single one.
Thank you so much. Usually you don't talk religion but I would like you to give some message for the Indian Muslims.
I'm a small person. I don't have any right to give people a speech or a message. I am a helper and to help is my right. But I would like that all my Muslim brothers and sisters don't merely remain votes for somebody. Today, India's government has reduced them to mere voters. We want to see them as living breathing people. Let them also dream. Spend their lives in the pursuit and fulfillment of their dreams. This is what we want to see.
Unfortunately, in seven years, the government has reduced them to mere voters. They are more than just voters. Let them fulfill their dreams, their children's dreams. This is what we want. And in that regard, however we can help them we would be more than happy to.
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-the-modi-interview-i-wont-apologise-for-2002-riots/20120727.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-modi-we-want-muslims-to-fulfill-their-dreams/20120801.htm
Look, our biggest challenge is us, because the people have a lot of expectations of us. From others, they don't make so many requests. From me, they have more expectations. We have to break our own records every time.
Listen: Modi's controversial interview on Gujarat riots
You've set the standards so high...
If somebody works for six hours, then people are happy if that person works for six and half hours...but I work for 18 hours and people want me to work for 20.
There is opposition from within your party. People say that your biggest challenge is coming from within your own party. The mood is one of opposition.
I've left that decision to the public. Always. In 2002, in 2004 during the Lok Sabha elections, in 2005 during the Vidhan Sabha elections, the 2005 local self government elections, the 2007 assembly elections, 2010 local self government elections and the 2009 parliament elections. In 2012 my stand is still the same. In the last ten years, we've fought 6-7 varied elections and we've won all of them. Every single one.
Thank you so much. Usually you don't talk religion but I would like you to give some message for the Indian Muslims.
I'm a small person. I don't have any right to give people a speech or a message. I am a helper and to help is my right. But I would like that all my Muslim brothers and sisters don't merely remain votes for somebody. Today, India's government has reduced them to mere voters. We want to see them as living breathing people. Let them also dream. Spend their lives in the pursuit and fulfillment of their dreams. This is what we want to see.
Unfortunately, in seven years, the government has reduced them to mere voters. They are more than just voters. Let them fulfill their dreams, their children's dreams. This is what we want. And in that regard, however we can help them we would be more than happy to.
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-the-modi-interview-i-wont-apologise-for-2002-riots/20120727.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-modi-we-want-muslims-to-fulfill-their-dreams/20120801.htm
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