Arvind Kejriwal, Delhi Chief Minister and Aam Aadmi Party leader speaks to Raj Chengappa, Editor-in-Chief of The Tribune Group of Newspapers
What
are the lessons or the learning experience you have had from being in
power the past month and a half?
One realises that there is
no dearth of money; a lot of money is available with the government.
What was happening was that big projects costing several hundred crore
of rupees, which have absolutely no public utility, were being given
out. When these projects are done they need huge amounts of money. But
when you have people with the right kind of intentions, with an open
mind, open to ideas, it is not rocket science to improve things. The
second thing is that the vested interests are huge; they are all across
— political, commercial, bureaucratic and even in the media. I’ll
give you an instance: The Prevention of Corruption Act is being diluted
in a major way. That Bill is being presented in Parliament, but no one
in the media is talking about it. The media is busy wondering why Arvind
has taken a three-bedroom house or a four-bedroom house; why has he
changed his sweater, sandals. The entire effort is to make us fail. To
show that we don’t know how to govern. Obviously, there are interests.
One of the impressions
about you is that you are a man in a hurry, doing a lot of things in a
short period. What is the strategy behind this? Do you believe the
government would fall shortly, and you have to do all this before that
happens?
But we don’t think we
are doing anything in a hurry. It is just that we are working hard, and
we must work hard. We made several mistakes, and in the beginning we
were also saying that we were grateful to the media for pointing out our
mistakes. We also took back some of our steps on the basis of the
feedback. We always valued constructive criticism. But if anything went
wrong, I don’t think speed was responsible for our bad judgement.
What were your
mistakes?
Many. For instance, we set
up the "janta darbar", it didn’t work out. When I get up in
the morning, there are a lot of people standing outside my house and I
meet them. I wanted to streamline that. So we decided that all the
ministers will meet people once a week, and the rest of the days the
officers will meet them. The idea was to meet the people personally. But
the day we announced the idea, thousands of people came. We had made
arrangements for 2,000-3,000 people, but 20,000 came. I think we should
have studied models that have been implemented in other states before
doing that. There are many such small steps that we had to take back.
One obviously learns from that.
Did you expect you
would come to power so quickly?
Three or four months
before the elections it had become clear from the mood of the people
that we were winning.
So you had actually
given a thought to what exactly to do after coming to power. You are not
taking ad hoc decisions after being surprised by the victory.
We have been in power only
a month and a half, and many people are already judging us or writing us
off. We have taken over from a government that was there for 15 years.
You can imagine the vested interests that would be there. We don’t
know which officer is aligned with whom. Building your team takes time.
You need 20 to 25 days to identify the officers. You cannot randomly
appoint someone to a post. Good officers are hard to find. It is unfair
to judge us so quickly.
On the Delhi Police
controversy, there are two points: A lot of people agree with you that
things need to change, but others’ objection was to the dharna
approach you took while being sworn to the Constitution as Chief
Minister. Many said you could have brought about disaffection in the
Delhi Police. Why did you choose the dharna path?
First, I don’t agree
that because one is holding a constitutional office one loses the right
to protest or one should not protest. If it is required one should fight
for justice in a non-violent manner. Fighting for justice in the streets
is very much a constitutional method. It is part of our Constitution
under Article 19. Why should it be restricted to only ordinary people?
Why cannot a Chief Minister protest if he finds himself helpless in a
particular situation and is not able to do [what he wants]. This is a
wrong notion of democracy that a Chief Minister should only work from
his air-conditioned office and not come out in the street. He must come
out in the streets and that is what I did.
A woman had been
gang-raped in Delhi. The first thing on assuming office I did was call
the Police Commissioner and asked him about the high level of crime
taking place against women. He came up with statistics on the number of
rape cases. I said that statistics is good for a public relations
exercise, but even if one rape has taken place why has it taken place,
though rape cases have doubled in the last one year in Delhi.
There are two types of
rapes: one is something that happens in a family, which the police can
do nothing about. The other is where antisocial elements are involved. I
said 90 per cent of the crimes take place with full police collusion and
knowledge. Therefore heads should roll if a rape takes place in a
particular area. You have to fix accountability. Not necessarily the SHO
— it could be the beat constable, SI, whoever it was that was supposed
to have been on that road that day, but was not there. So when this
Danish woman was gang-raped I said someone has to go. You cannot say no
one is responsible.
One woman was burnt alive
in another area and the SHO refused to arrest the people. Our minister
was standing outside the house, when all the culprits were inside the
house. Area residents were gathered, the SHO was also standing there,
and people were asking him to arrest the suspects. But the SHO refused
to make arrests. He said ‘get me transferred if you can’. If this is
the case then where do you stand? That is why I staged the dharna; to do
something about the police. Some said I was doing ‘tamasha’. No one
does tamasha in 4° C at night. Others do tamasha sitting in the AC. I
think the dharna went down well with the ordinary people.
What is your solution
in terms of control of the Delhi Police by the state Chief Minister?
Should you not approach Parliament for the amendments?
The Delhi Police has to be
under the Delhi Government. It is very unfortunate that today the Delhi
Police is completely unaccountable. Shinde has no interest [in how they
perform]. So who are they reporting to? Can you have a force with all
police powers without answerability to any political executive? There
has to be political control over them.
What would you like the
division of control to be?
Let the Centre have
control over the police in New Delhi’s Lutyens zone and the NDMC area.
As far as municipal functions are concerned, Delhi today is divided into
three parts: MCD, NDMC and Delhi Cantt army area. Regarding police, if
you have concerns then the army and NDMC areas can be with the Centre,
but control in the MCD area should be given to us.
In your policies, you
have announced subsidies for power and water. How is that different from
say what the Punjab Government does in giving free power or the UPA’s
various populist policies. How is your party different from others
giving sops to win votes?
Firstly, we should not say
that whatever other parties are doing is all wrong. It could be good as
well as bad. If Punjab is giving free power to farmers, it may not be a
bad idea. Do you know that we give Rs 6 lakh crore worth of tax subsidy
to the industry? It goes to Reliance, Tatas. No one complains if you
give it to the rich. But if you give a common man Rs 200 worth of
subsidy everyone is up in arms. Giving subsidy to the poor is a
government’s responsibility. World over subsidies are given, including
in the US.
The total subsidy that we
are giving in Delhi for power and water is Rs 242 crore out of a total
budget of Rs 40,000 crore. This is around 0.5 per cent. The scales are
important. Had I given Rs 10,000 crore as subsidy out of the Rs 40,000
crore, you could have said this guy does not know his finances. We have
to do something for the poor out of this Rs 40,000 crore. It is the
government’s job to supply water. There has to be ‘lifeline water’
for the poor.
You may argue whether the
free water allowed should be 20 kilolitres or 10 kilolitres. But you
cannot say no free water can be given or every drop has to be charged
for. Even someone who cannot pay needs water. He’ll steal if you don’t
give him. You are forcing him to do that. In power there is
cross-subsidy everywhere. Those who have 20 air-conditioners can pay
more; the poor can pay a little less for up to 200 units. In fact, the
concept of income tax or direct taxes is also cross-subsidisation. It is
very interesting — about 2 crore people are paying for the rest of the
120 crore.
I could have purchased a
helicopter worth Rs 450 crore for myself after becoming the Chief
Minister, as all the others do. I could have claimed I’ll travel from
home to office in the helicopter and not cause inconvenience to the
people on the roads. People would have called me an efficient and modern
Chief Minister. But I did not buy a helicopter, and gave subsidy worth
Rs 250 crore, and that is causing people heartburn!
But it is feared
subsidy often goes to people who don’t need it.
We have taken care of
that. You get subsidy only till 400 units. The moment you go to 401, you
pay for all of it. The same is for water. If you consume more than 20
kilolitre, you pay for all of it. This also encourages conservation, and
there is an automatic check against high consumers getting subsidy.
You decided to reverse
the previous government’s policy on allowing FDI in multi-brand
retail. What is your reasoning behind this?
We had researched on the
subject for quite some time while making our manifesto. Many editors
from business newspapers have met me on this, and I asked them to tell
me what will be the benefits to the country from this FDI. I offered to
change the decision if there are benefits. I was told of four essential
benefits: better price for famers, more choice and better price for
consumers, and more employment. I have read a lot on the 130 countries
that have FDI in multi-brand retail, and found evidence of only more
choice for consumers. Even in the US there is a huge opposition against
Walmart. I asked for names of the countries where farmers have got
better prices, they could give me none.
They do cite China as a
successful example of FDI in retail. But China has a huge domestic
manufacturing sector, which needed to market its products. So there was
an actual demand for large organised retail to distribute the goods. But
even there it led to a huge amount of displacement, people running small
shops lost their jobs. But because the manufacturing sector was thriving
these people could be absorbed in that, and it did not lead to any
turmoil.
Here people are already
clamouring for jobs. We have such huge unemployment and very little
manufacturing. There are no government jobs. We have to encourage the
private industry and traders. We can’t have any policy that leads to
loss of jobs.
What is your approach
to boosting the Indian economy?
We have to encourage
private business. The government has no business to be in business. That
is very clear. There is a false propaganda that we are socialists and we’ll
nationalise everything. We have no plan to nationalise anything. An
Indian is a born entrepreneur, it is in our blood. But the present
policies and inspectors do not let people do trade or business in peace.
We would like to
deregulate business. The government will have no interference. We’ll
let people do business without any permissions; just don’t do anything
wrong, for which no one will be spared.
If you are put in
charge of the national economy, what would you do?
First, decentralisation is
required. At present politics and economics are intricately related to
each other. Recently, the son of a very big businessman of the country
gave me an interesting perspective. He told me AAP’s economic policy
could be defined in two words: ‘good politics’, which was what we
stood for. He said if you created an honest environment, business would
flourish. People would do the business on their own. It was not the
government that did development but the people. They just needed a
healthy environment, which the government could provide.
Soon we are going to begin
relaying the roads in all Delhi industrial areas simultaneously. We’ll
provide all the facilities required for business. We will also open more
industrial areas. I have had many business delegations come to complain
of VAT regulations and forms. I immediately consulted the VAT
commissioner and scrapped many of the forms and changed procedures. We’ll
have a situation that no trader would have to come to the VAT office. Do
everything online. I get the officers concerned and traders to meet and
take decisions on the spot. They get up only when there is agreement.
This is not rocket science.
The UPA has a lot of
policies for rural India, such as the job security scheme. What would
you do better?
No policy made in Delhi
can succeed, howsoever well intentioned (though I suspect the intention
too in most policies). The government cannot be run from Delhi. We are
bringing the Swaraj Bill in the Cabinet next month. Money will not be
spent on things the government decides, but what the residents of the
area want. Delhi will be divided into around 3,000 mohallas, where
people will meet every month and decide what their priorities are. They’ll
be given a sum of money as per their share to spend. Some people fear it
could be misused. Even if they all divide the money up amongst
themselves, it’ll be better than politicians getting it. But they won’t
do that, as a mother cares more about her child’s education than the
education secretary. They will decide their own priorities and make
their own budgets. Why should the government decide who needs ration or
job security. Let the area residents themselves decide which scheme to
run.
What would you do with
all the national schemes, like the MGNREGA?
There are more than 250
centrally sponsored schemes in the country right now. Most of the
schemes need to be scrapped, and the money should be given directly to
the people. These schemes are only giving employment to some of the
government employees. People should make their own schemes for their own
areas keeping in view their necessities.
What do you think of
the food security scheme?
People are more worried
about their food security than the food secretary of the Central or
state government. Let people sit in their mohalla sabhas and decide how
they want to use the money that the government has given for them —
whether they want food security or drinking water security.
What is your view of
the Aadhar card scheme?
It is not a bad idea to
give people some sort of identification. However, there are certain
objections, which need to be addressed.
So how will you ensure
subsidies go to the right people?
I am not in favour of
anything that is centrally monitored from Delhi or the state
headquarters. I want to de-centralise decision-making. Let the people
decide because they are very creative. The political class has
suppressed the creative and enterprising spirit of the people of this
country. When our people go to the USA and other countries they become
top researchers, doctors, scientists. We need to make people completely
independent. We need to have research institutes that should be
independent of government control and monitoring.
What is the problem
with the Lokpal Bill that the Centre has passed?
The Centre’s Lokpal Bill
is complete nonsense. It cannot even send a rat to jail, forget about
Raja or Kalmadi. And now they are planning to water down the Prevention
of Corruption Act. They are taking out the effective provisions from
this Act. Their intention is not to check corruption, but to protect the
corrupt.
So, how is your Bill
different?
It is very sharp. It
ensures certainty and swiftness of punishment. Right from the Prime
Minister to Chief Minister, all are covered under this Bill. If anyone
indulges in corruption, he will get punishment and will go to jail
within six months to one year. His assets will be confiscated and he
will lose his job. We have defined time limits for every action. Finally
it is the intention that matters. Their intention was bad, whereas we
have tried to plug every loophole. There were several rounds of
discussion to prepare this Bill.
Why did you and Anna
Hazare fall out. Was it the Lokpal Bill or the approach?
After we tried everything
to make the government bring in the Lokpal Bill, and failed, we decided
to enter politics to do it ourselves. But he [Anna] said he did not want
to enter politics.
I am in touch with Anna
Hazare and spoke to him just 20 minutes back, and requested him to come
to Delhi on February 16 when we pass the Jan Lokpal Bill. He said that
he was pre-occupied with other engagements.
Once Kiran Bedi was
also with you....
It will be better if you
ask her this question. She seems to be becoming fond of the BJP.
What is your opinion
about Rahul Gandhi?
Please don’t ask me to
comment on Rahul and Modi. It is no good commenting on them.
But you have taken the
Congress’ support in Delhi.
We did not take their
support. They thrust it on us. Till now we have never spoken to them and
never had any meeting with them. The fact is that people have no hope
from mainstream and larger political parties, people are fed up with
their politics. We were nowhere, we had no standing. Arvind Kejriwal was
a nobody. Why have we been brought to power? There was a great political
vacuum and these politicians had looted the country and people just too
long. People were fed up with their corrupt politics. They wanted to
support honest people. We talked of honesty and demonstrated it, so they
brought us forward.
You talk of free
enterprise, so does the BJP. What is the difference between AAP and the
BJP?
It is the question of
intention. Even the Congress says the same things, but their intention
is not honest, ours is and we do what we say. We have done a lot of work
for people in the past one and a half month. You show me even a single
government that has done so much work in such a short period since
Independence. We walk the talk. We have started work on every point
raised in our manifesto. Our intention is very clear and honest, whereas
their intention is not clean.
The Congress claims it
is secular, the BJP calls it pseudo-secular. What is your policy on
minorities?
Both these parties talk
funny. When one party supports the Congress, the latter calls it
secular, when the same party supports the BJP it is labelled communal.
In fact, both the BJP and the Congress do politics for power. They talk
of secularism only to grab power and get the votes of the minorities.
Both the BJP and the Congress have the same character, they can go to
the extent of killing thousands of people to grab power.
They talk of development.
In fact, the primary responsibility of a government is to provide
security to its people, then justice and then comes development. If we
are unable to provide security and justice to our people, no development
can take place, only partial development may take place. Today, neither
Rahul Gandhi nor Narendra Modi talks of security and justice. Where is
the security for women in our country? Both the parties talk of
development because they have huge money to make in development. There
are many convicted persons in the Cabinet of Gujarat Chief Minister
Narendra Modi. Can you expect such persons or such a government to give
justice and security to the people with such convicted persons in the
government?
Our government is clean.
There were allegations of corruption against one candidate of our party
from Rajouri Garden before the Assembly elections, we cancelled his
ticket and left the seat vacant. If you allow a corrupt person to hold a
key position, he will make the entire system under him corrupt. Both the
Congress and the BJP are two sides of the same coin.
What is your view of
the differences in your own party? Some people like Capt Gopinath have
criticised your policies. One MLA has left. Why this?
Ours is a self-screening
party. As the party grows, people join, people leave. Some come and ask
me what will they get? I tell them you will have to face lathis, go to
jail and neglect your families. Join if you want.
Take the case of Binny. He
asked to be made a minister, then again came for the Lok Sabha ticket. I
flatly refused both the demands. He left and we did not stop him. Then I
called a meeting of all AAP MLAs and told everybody that there should be
no greed for any ministerial berth or seat of power. If there is any
they have to get rid of it. Even if my government falls, I am not
worried about that. I have not come here to form or run a government on
these principles.
There are some people like
Captain Gopinath who did not read the vision document of the party.
There are clear guidelines. Mallika Sarabhai also came on own her own
and then left. In fact, there is no place for greedy persons in our
party. I understand that some political parties have been planning to
plant 300-400 persons as members of AAP and then make them revolt
against the party to give it a bad name. There is a game plan of both
the BJP and the Congress in collaboration with a section of the media to
defame AAP. That there is no democracy in AAP and Arvind Kejriwal is
this and that. There is far more dissent in the BJP, but that is not
highlighted.
Do you think your
government will last its full term?
We are not worried about
that.
It appears that you are
on a confrontation mode so that the support to your government is
withdrawn and whenever elections are held your party emerges with a
clear majority.
No, this is a media
creation. We are not worried about whether the government survives for
another day or not. We are only worried about people’s welfare. If the
government is running, we should work. If the government falls, fresh
elections will be held. If we are elected again, we will form and run
the government. If the people do not want to elect us again, we will sit
at our homes.
You have said your
party will contest many seats in the General Election. What will be the
key issue?
I think corruption should
be a major issue. In fact, it should become the defining issue.
How many seats is your
party planning to contest?
We will try to contest on
all those seats where the candidates from other parties are criminals,
corrupt, communal or have dynastic politics. These four types of
candidates should be defeated. We will field good candidates and we will
tell the people that earlier you had no option, but this time you will
have an option, and you should choose honest and clean persons. After
all, it is not my election, it is theirs — the people’s elections.
Are you not
overreaching yourself? In such a short time you are trying to build a
full movement?
If it is my election, then
we were overreaching. But if this is the election of the people, there
is a political storm and the common people stand as candidates it is not
overreaching. We do not have our own candidates. We will field clean
people from the public. You know those candidates of ours who won from
Delhi, they are ordinary people. Nobody knew them. Just as they were
elected by the people in the Delhi Assembly elections, so will our party
candidates be elected from other constituencies in the general election.
The Aam Admi Party is just a facilitator.
Are you looking for
electoral reforms — one of the important issues is the amount of money
spent in elections — what needs to be done to control this?
Many things need to be
done seriously. Electoral reforms are a big issue. This is where
political corruption starts. There is need for complete transparency.
There is huge spending in every rally of Narendra Modi. People tell me
that Mukesh Ambani is backing Modi, Adani is with Modi. We need to know
if this is true and who is behind such rallies. Where is the money
coming from? Large sums are being spent on Rahul Gandhi’s rallies,
they are roaming about and travelling in planes while we are unable to
manage or arrange petrol for our Wagon-R car. The people should ask
wherefrom such huge amount is coming?
So you think the key is
ensuring transparency in electoral spending?
Of course, there should be
complete transparency by political parties about their funding. They
should follow our method of spending. We have put up all our expenses on
the website. We account for every paisa. The moment you have
transparency in the electoral process, automatically corrupt and unfair
practices will come down.
You have made a lot of
allegations against various political leaders, including Modi and Sonia,
saying they are corrupt. But you are criticised for not providing any
evidence. Are you going to do so now?
No, I did not say it on my
own. I just took it from the media. After all, you people have carried
such articles about them. We have just endorsed it. You search the
Google and you will find 10 stories of corruption against these people.
But will you not show
facts to back your statements?
I am not trying them. Last
year when I sat on dharna, we named 15 ministers and we had documentary
evidence against them then. But this time we took their names on the
basis of past reports and saying that there are serious allegations
against them. We have to defeat them — it is a political battle. It is
up to the people to decide if they want to defeat these corrupt
politicians or not.
The criticism of your
party is that you have started making allegations without any evidence
against prominent people. For instance, your party colleague has alleged
that the Lt Governor of Delhi is in cahoots with the Congress. What is
the evidence that you have to make such a serious allegation?
We have observed during
the past 10-15 days too many things are leaking from the LG’s office
and this has raised suspicion. For instance, I was to meet the LG today,
there was an agenda; but all those things were leaked out to the media
last evening. So the meeting became futile. Am I supposed to respond to
the LG through the media? This is not the kind of relationship that can
exist between a Chief Minister and an LG. That raised suspicion, but my
party colleague should have avoided using the language you mentioned.
Shouldn’t meetings
between you and the LG be transparent? After all, that is what your
party has advocated – transparency in action?
There is a difference
between transparency and the leaking out of some information in a
planned manner. Today I wrote a letter, and at the end I wrote I am not
leaking out this letter, but officially releasing this letter because
these issues have been raised by us in the media. The LG should have
called a press conference yesterday and should have said, "Look, I
have received this and am giving it to you." There should be no
selective leaking out.
There was another
instance: The Delhi Commission for Women’s appointment was to be done.
The file went to the LG’s office and there was news on the same
evening that the LG was going to raise the following objections on this
file. My office contacted officials at the LG office and they told us
"Don’t worry, the LG is not here and he has not written anything
on this file". The next day the LG wrote the same things that were
on the news channel. The important question is how did the channel know
the LG’s mind? This is not transparency; this is leakage with a
motive.
Who has influenced your
thinking the most? Who is your role model?
Gandhiji has influenced me
the most. He had stressed on speaking the truth. I realised during the
past two-three years that we were very small people; we have neither
money nor standing. But mischievous people conspire against us with deep
conspiracies which could ruin us. Yet come what may, we have spoken the
truth and always stood by honesty.
So like Gandhi you are
not for a violent revolution?
Yes, we are not for a
violent revolution, only a peaceful one. A violent revolution cannot
become a mass movement. Only a few people will gain from a violent
revolution. Once those violent people get power, they will become the
problem and be autocratic.
What about influences
when you lived in Hissar?
Till Class 12, I only used
to study; there was pressure on my mind that I had to stand first in the
class. I was good neither in sports nor cultural activities. When I got
admission in the IIT, there I did different things because IITs have a
different culture. In fact, I did everything but studies. IIT groomed me
a lot.
Finally, Arvind
Kejriwal ko itna gussa kyon ata hai? Why are you always so angry?
We are against the unjust
system. I am not against individuals. I have no personal enmity with
Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. We need to change the prevailing system.
